Sunday, December 19, 2010

The Invisible Hand? That's Nothin!


Some people say that when times are good, workmen are more idle, and when times are hard they are more industrious than ordinary...

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, Book 1, chapter 8:

In cheap years it is pretended, workmen are generally more idle, and in dear times more industrious than ordinary. A plentiful subsistence, therefore, it has been concluded, relaxes, and a scanty one quickens their industry. That a little more plenty than ordinary may render some workmen idle, cannot be well doubted; but that it should have this effect upon the greater part, or that men in general should work better when they are ill fed, than when they are well fed, when they are disheartened than when they are in good spirits, when they are frequently sick than when they are generally in good health, seems not very probable.


That men in general should work better when they are ill-fed than when they are well-fed, seems not very probable.

He's much easier to read than Marx. And what a nice guy!

8 comments:

Greg said...

Honestly, I havent read either Smith or Marx. I have read what other people have quoted about them and feel like I know much of where they are coming from but I really need to sit down and read their stuff sometime.

It is interesting that they seem to come to many of the same conclusions about things. DIfferent prescriptions it seems but very parallel analysis.

I agree that Smith seems like a nicer guy than Marx.

Marx seems like Jesus in the temple at all times, throwing over the tables and challenging the corrupt power structure. Smith seems like Jesus when he was pointing out to his disciples the error of their ways. Much more like a teacher than an anarchist.

I feel more like an anarchist at times but I want to be more like a teacher. I'm trying to learn

The Arthurian said...

Interesting comparisons there, Greg. Religion and economics are closely related, for sure.

The Communist Manifesto was an easy read, but I never had the energy to get far into anything else by Marx. Bought but never opened Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments... I'm not much of a reader, and I always prefer short. But in The Wealth of Nations and also Tocqueville's Democracy in America you can just feel how brilliant these guys were. As opposed to the political thrillers that are sold as books on the economy these days.

I think anarchists are angry. The last politics that angered me was when that crook Nixon appointed his successor, who promptly pardoned Nixon. After that I gave up on politics and opted for reason. I try to learn without getting bullsh**ted. I figure if a guy knows what he's talking about, he should be able to tell it simply. That's my excuse, anyhow! :)

Greg said...

Anarchists ARE angry. I'm angry too, much of the time, but I hope my anger comes from the same place the anger of our famous prophets in our past arose. From a sense that too many of us are just plain chasing the wrong dreams. Lust for power and control arise out of insecurity. Security is not something one can achieve alone which is why we are social creatures. Its clear to me that we will never reach our potential as an individual without a healthy and strong social network and that network has a cost, but its worth it. We must pay it or we will perish.

While angry about much, I am also very content with my life, am fortunate to be so well off and KNOW that I will be alright. However I am becoming less and less tolerant of ignorance and greedy opportunists.

The Arthurian said...

Marx seems like Jesus in the temple at all times, throwing over the tables and challenging the corrupt power structure. Smith seems like Jesus when he was pointing out to his disciples the error of their ways. Much more like a teacher than an anarchist.

I really like that.

Anger... I think a lot of people are angry because they know they work hard but are nevertheless not so well off. It's hard to be happy when you're sitting at home (can't afford to go out) and you're not even comfortable (thermostat turned down). Who ya gonna blame? People blame government. It's only right. But people are confused, and blame government spending. Meanwhile, the same economic problem that keeps people cold and at home also keeps the government in deficit.

Anger. I wish more people would redirect their energy into trying to understand the problem better.

Its clear to me that we will never reach our potential as an individual without a healthy and strong social network and that network has a cost, but its worth it. We must pay it or we will perish.

We are definitely social animals. But you saw the reaction to the book title "It Takes a Village." There's a strong streak of individualism in us, too. Some of us, anyhow. :)

The cost that you mention... It is a variable, perhaps. In a good economic environment, the cost is low and easily paid. In a troubled economic environment, the cost is high, and people come to focus on that cost rather than on the underlying, "first cause" problem.

Greg said...

Not to proselytize or anything but if you really study the ideas attributed to Jesus the PERSON, not the mythical being with Superman like powers, its hard to see him as anything other than an ancient anarchist. An anarchist that actually had very sensible and productive ways for the oppressed population at that time (like 90% of the people) to either retain or regain some sense of humanity.

I find our modern religions quite odd that they actually white wash the actual sayings and doings of the human Jesus and instead rely on the writings and thinking of people who came to engage in a sort of hero worship.

There is so much truth and eternal wisdom from how JC instructed folks to cope with situations where you hold none of the political power, almost none of the economic power but you have ALL the power to transform some real relationships in your life. These "slaves" were given some effective ways to dominate their masters without a sword.

I dont know if you've ever read the...... alternate.... accounts of certain bible stories like "Turn the other cheek", "Walk the extra mile" or "If they ask for your robe give them your undergarment too". If you have great, if not her they are

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/What-Would-Jesus-Think-Of-Kings-Protests.aspx


I guess Im getting in the Christmas spirit some.

I hope you have a great holiday. Ive really enjoyed finding you as an internet friend the last few months.
I look forward to seeing your posts.


Cheers and bless you

The Arthurian said...

Thanks, Greg. I've enjoyed it too. And following some of your interaction with Andolfatto and Winterspeak and others.

Hey, that's an interesting link. what with the "rigorous attention to the social customs of the Jewish homeland in the first century and what these sayings would have meant in that context." Funny how it takes all the standard interpretations and stands'em on their head.

You write: "...JC instructed folks to cope with situations where you hold none of the political power, almost none of the economic power but you have ALL the power to transform some real relationships in your life."

For some reason this reminds me of The L-Curve with its football-field graphic and David chandler's simple remark: "The horizontal spike has the votes. The vertical spike has the money."

Have a good.

Greg said...

Thanks for the link

That L curve site is interesting.

I must say that I'm starting to get just a little weary of simply exploring possible causes and the mental masturbations that go on at a lot of the econ sites. This can go on forever because THE answer will likely never be obvious to a majority by looking at data, seeing as how data is constantly mined in an effort to confirm your biases. This is why arguments need to be less mathematical and more moral in my view. Did I direct you to this link already?

http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/1004.html


This is a great essay AND an outstanding discussion that follows. Particularly the discussion between Winterspeak and Mr Waldman. I wish the comment section was still open because I think he is on the track that a serious discussion needs to begin.


Merry Christmas

Greg said...

Thanks for the link

That L curve site is interesting.

I must say that I'm starting to get just a little weary of simply exploring possible causes and the mental masturbations that go on at a lot of the econ sites. This can go on forever because THE answer will likely never be obvious to a majority by looking at data, seeing as how data is constantly mined in an effort to confirm your biases. This is why arguments need to be less mathematical and more moral in my view. Did I direct you to this link already?

http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/1004.html


This is a great essay AND an outstanding discussion that follows. Particularly the discussion between Winterspeak and Mr Waldman. I wish the comment section was still open because I think he is on the track that a serious discussion needs to begin.


Merry Christmas